practical cats

July 10, 2010

Thanks to various people for input on that last post. I’m still happy that the blue cluster represents the feral druid bear tanks. Characters in that cluster are stacking all the stats recommended by the various bear tanking blogs, including agility.

But I’m happy to admit that the red cluster is more of a mystery – something at least partly to do with cat form, but there are some oddities there.

All the druids in the sample are feral druids – the balance and resto ones were all filtered out in the database query. Undoubtedly there are druids with two specs who forget to swap gear when they swap specs, but could there really be so many? Those two clusters are pretty dense – to me they represent lots of players following a standard pattern rather than something that could be the result of  mistakes.

I’ve got a lot more charts to post on this question, but I see from the comments that I haven’t quite selected all the right stats. Let me fix that on Monday and we’ll have another look at what’s going on.

UPDATE: More interesting comments. Thanks all. Unfortunately RL affairs are diverting me for the next couple of days but I’ll get back to it as soon as I can.

Just briefly but:

I have done an analysis of talent distribution and yes, they seem to be very poor predictors of rading roles.

I agree that the red cluster may represent hybrid behaviour and I suspect now that there is possibly no way to get a sense of how many players heavily lean towards cat over bear.

Thnks especially to Narkondas who pointed out something that I hadn’t properly considered. I talked about the blobs representing players who were “stacking” certain stats. But that has to be proved; it is not a starting point. The mana available to the red blob toons may simply be the default mana values granted by the gear etc that the toon is wearing. Unfortunately the armoury picture is static and doesn’t replace mana with energy when the toon is in cat form (otherwise we’d have a foolproof way of counting cats).

UPDATE 2: D’Oh! Yes there is an error in the talents data. The database query was picking up some talents from the inactive spec. Thanks to Narkondas for spotting that. I’ve replaced the files in the previous post with corrected versions. Every entry now adds up to 71 points or less. Also I’ve now become convinced that all those high spellpower/high mana toons really are running with gear that is not ideal for feral builds – either by accident or by design. So I’ve added a spellpower column into the talents data to see if we can see any patterns there. Or the spellpower column can be used to filter out those toons that are um… trying to subvert the dominant feral paradigm…


9 Responses to “practical cats”

  1. Narkondas Says:

    I look forward to it 🙂

    I still think this should be doable by talentmatching though – perhaps by looking at each feral talent and assigning it value like:

    Shredding Attacks: +2 (Clearly a cat talent)
    Thick Hide: -2 (clearly a bear talent)

    So I went and did that: (obviously this is a subjective view of the world – my subjective view to be exact – but here goes)

    Thick Hide (-2 pr. point)
    Shredding Attacks (+2 pr. point)
    Natural Reaction (-2 pr. point)
    Predatory Instincts (+2 pr. point)

    The rest either benifits both forms (so will be in any decent feral build) – or is PvP talents.

    The logic used here is to do “2 pr point” for those talents that are exclusively useful to one form.

    I’ve calculated my own talentspecs with the above – and found that:
    Bear-spec: -6 / 0 / -6 / 0 = -12
    Cat-spec: 0 / +4 / 0 / +6 = +10

    In addition to the above you can put weight on Glyphs: (These are a lot clearer – and perhaps on their own enough to identify the build)
    Glyph of Maul: -3
    Glyph of Frenzied Regeneration: -3
    Glyph of Growling: -3
    Glyph of Survival Instinxts: -3
    Glyph of Rip: +3
    Glyph of Shred: +3
    Glyph of Savage Roar: +3

    Again using myself as an example my bear-spec would get an additional -9 and my cat-spec an additional +9.

    We could look at gems and gear too – but I think that people with two feral specs share gear alot, and accept that one is just sub-par – at least I know I do 🙂

    I kinda like doing it like this – since it eliminates the possible error from people logging out in wrong gear. It also eliminates “progression-related factors” – like entrylevel raiders being forced to use cat gear in their bear-epec because that is the drops they have received and vice versa.

    You will still need to root out PvP’ers from the above. You can do that by making an (Arena played=0 AND BG’s<20) or you can try to include them as well – making a seperate dimension with:

    Brutal Impact (+2 PvP pr. point)
    Primal Tenacity (+2 PvP pr. point)

  2. Narkondas Says:

    As a side note – I fully expect to see a lot of outliers – that could be explained by:

    – Resto druids doings dailies in their feral-offspec (since their main spec is.. well.. useless… for killing anything)
    – People who just dont take talenting and glyphing seriusly (These should be rooted out by having a high enough barrier for “raid bosses killed” – at least I hope so)

  3. Antje Says:

    Just to add to my comment on your previous post:

    The thing that separates my bear & cat gear sets is A) gems, B) enchants and C) trinkets. Other than that there a lot of overlap in gear items. Each feral T9 piece has Agi, Sta, Crit, AP, and Arpen, so both bears & cats will have some of those stats. If you look for the gems, enchants and trinkets, you’ll see the difference between cats & bears.

    I have no idea why there are so many feral mana-users. It has absolutely no utility for ferals other than PvP, but you said you had taken PvPers out. I don’t see how it has anything to do with cat druids. Maybe the red group are the noobs and the blue group are the savvy? =)

  4. zardoz Says:

    Thanks for all those comments. I’ve updated the practical cats post with a few more observations based on your input. More to come but; give me a few days to crank out some more data sets.

  5. Narkondas Says:

    I’ve continued my analysis (still in a spreadsheet) – wanting to do the “bear points/cat points” idea based on talents I suggested yesterday.

    I’ve came across an oddity though..

    The data seems to contain 5142 druids that have spent more than 71 talentpoints… (in “feraldruidbuilds_large-arff”)

    The toon with ToonID 326068 tops the list with a grand total of 97 points spend.

    I’m gonna eliminate these from my further analysis – but just wanted to let you know.

  6. Narkondas Says:

    Ok – these are my results:

    Using the previously stated rules:

    Thick Hide (-2 pr. point)
    Shredding Attacks (+2 pr. point)
    Natural Reaction (-2 pr. point)
    Predatory Instincts (+2 pr. point)

    I’ve analyzed the entire sample from “feraldruidbuilds_large-arff”) with the following filters:
    – Total Talent points spent = 71
    – Total Arenas played = 0
    – Total BG’s played 75 as well – but forgot)

    This makes a score for each toon between -12 (Full bear) and 10 (full cat). Due to using “2” in all rules only even results are possible – hence grouping into 12 different groups.


    Score Count % of all
    -12 2933 32%
    -10 117 1%
    -8 1264 14%
    -6 361 4%
    -4 119 1%
    -2 448 5%
    0 426 5%
    2 124 1%
    4 510 5%
    6 289 3%
    8 90 1%
    10 2626 28%

    The two largest groups are the “pure” ones – those bears that have forgone all talents only usefull for cats, and those cats that have forgone all talents only usefull for bears.

    Much more analysis should be done – I think that adding the bear score and the cat score together like this actually hides some truths. (it is actually possible to have all 4 of the measured talents maxed on the same toon – giving a score of -2 as a result – this is the case of about 3-4% of the sample)

    BUT – the method did reveal significant clustering.

  7. Narkondas Says:


    Made a filter with:

    – Total Talent points spent = 71
    – Total Arenas played = 0
    – Total Raids done > 75


    Score Count % of all
    -12 4004 36%
    -10 133 1%
    -8 1642 15%
    -6 366 3%
    -4 110 1%
    -2 409 4%
    0 338 3%
    2 75 1%
    4 470 4%
    6 315 3%
    8 112 1%
    10 3223 29%

    I need to get this data in a more serius piece of software (my spreadsheet will only let me filter on three items at the same time, meaning some PvP’ers slipped in this time)

    Anyways – with raids_done in the picture the two large clusters becomes a big bigger. And I think these two are our typical “I am a tank” and “I am a DPS” clusters – the others might have a “My prime role is X, but I can also Y when the situation calls for it”.

    With Glyph-data added to this – I think the picture would become even clearer.

  8. Narkondas Says:

    Zardoz – any chance you can add Glyph data to the dataset as well?

  9. zardoz Says:

    Yes I can make a dataset with gear and with glyphs but it probably won’t get done till later in the week. I’ll post it up as soon as I can.

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in: Logo

You are commenting using your account. Log Out /  Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out /  Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out /  Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out /  Change )


Connecting to %s

%d bloggers like this: